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dsd over hdmi


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#1
hey guys.
been a while since i have posted here.
so i found out my avr in my second room is capable of dsd over hdmi.
its a denon 3808ci which is the american version 110/120v


currently running a media centre pc with a linux based kodi operating system, (libreelec) 
i dont think kodi does dsd but i could be wrong?
i would be happy to dual boot snakeoil and kodi on that machine if snakeoil does dsd over hdmi?

if not i could probably put windows on there.
i am also wondering if intel integrated graphics hdmi can do this or if any of a number of nvidia and raeon graphics cards that i have could do it,

many google searches but not many answers. i guess dsd is a niche thing and there isnt much information about dsd over hdmi
it is not an i2s format. it is hdmi 1.4
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#2
(06-Sep-2020, 06:23 PM) anewmission Wrote: hey guys.
been a while since i have posted here.
so i found out my avr in my second room is capable of dsd over hdmi.
its a denon 3808ci which is the american version 110/120v


currently running a media centre pc with a linux based kodi operating system, (libreelec) 
i dont think kodi does dsd but i could be wrong?
i would be happy to dual boot snakeoil and kodi on that machine if snakeoil does dsd over hdmi?

if not i could probably put windows on there.
i am also wondering if intel integrated graphics hdmi can do this or if any of a number of nvidia and raeon graphics cards that i have could do it,

many google searches but not many answers. i guess dsd is a niche thing and there isnt much information about dsd over hdmi
it is not an i2s format. it is hdmi 1.4

Don't know Kodi, but a search suggests that Kodi does do DSD with latest (or upcoming?) version
https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid...pid2957642

Some suspicions based on initial searches. HDMI driver on Linux cannot do DSD, maybe not even DOP? Windows ASIO, WASAPI drivers for HDMi can do DOP but not DSD?

Limitation is due to HDMI. But if you choose USB or Ethernet (UPnP) , there are fewer limitations. Some receiving devices can only take DOP.
 Reply
#3
Almost certain HDCP is mandatory for DSD over HDMI to work. In other words, the signal path needs to be authenticated and encrypted.

Having said that, I havn't tried it myself.. As modern Denon/Marantz AVP/AVRs uses HEOS now (stream over the network) and that seems to work with DSD.
Snakeoil Operating System - Music, your way!
 Reply
#4
i would just like to try it as i dont have a secondary dac,

i will do some research. its something to do with a thing called denon link 3? anyway i will try it from a windows foobar machine and ill try with snakeoil and eventually the new version of kodi.
they may have added dsd as i asked for it so many times on the forums
[-] The following 1 user Likes anewmission's post:
  • agent_kith
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#5
Ok so this is how far I have gotten.
I updated Kodi (libreelec) to the latest 18.8.
I searched through the audio encoders and decoders and couldn't find a dad plugin.
It does play the files but I'm pretty sure it converts to pcm at 44.1

Unfortunately today the video output of my Denon 3808ci has stopped working. I do think it's something to do with my TV and the amp and they just aren't talking to each other properly.

I'm still using a trusty pioneer kuro in this setup, if anyone has any idea what it could be, please let me know.

I still see the boot up screen when I turn the media centre pc but then as it runs through bootuo the resolution changes alot and for some reason it's just not showing video. I did get it to show up for about 10 seconds a little while ago but it just went black again.

I'm going to put a graphics card in today instead of onboard graphics hdmi.

Still getting sound ..
I tried having a DVI to hdmi converter to the TV and hdmi to the Denon for audio but that isn't playing nice either.

The Denon gui is horrible.
So might be time to switch to windows for that machine also.

I will do a snake oil os test this week also. However when I go into the backend of my dedicated snake oil machine, it is only showing my usb DAC, it did at one point have the option of using hdmi .

The best would be if I can get snake oil working with hdmi dsd, then I will dual boot Kodi (libreelec) and snake oil for music .

Another strange thing that is happening is if I switch to mpd v20 or 21 I can no longer access the mod page where you update your library. I usually have it set to minimserver using upmpcli. Though the library is only updating in bubbleupnp app and not in M.A.L.P which is a straight forward mpd app .
 Reply
#6
(09-Sep-2020, 12:42 AM) anewmission Wrote: Ok so this is how far I have gotten.
I updated Kodi (libreelec) to the latest 18.8.
I searched through the audio encoders and decoders and couldn't find a dad plugin.
It does play the files but I'm pretty sure it converts to pcm at 44.1

Unfortunately today the video output of my Denon 3808ci has stopped working. I do think it's something to do with my TV and the amp and they just aren't talking to each other properly.

A tiny DSD logo will show up on the amp LCD if the input is receiving native DSD bitstream. Snakeoil should see onboard HDMI (Intel HDA) as an audio device, having said that, it's not gonna work as the Denon 3808 will only do DSD if it's encrypted.

(09-Sep-2020, 12:42 AM) anewmission Wrote: I'm still using a trusty pioneer kuro in this setup, if anyone has any idea what it could be, please let me know.

I still see the boot up screen when I turn the media centre pc but then as it runs through bootuo the resolution changes alot and for some reason it's just not showing video. I did get it to show up for about 10 seconds a little while ago but it just went black again.

Could be a handshake issue? Try a difference HDMI cable if you can.

(09-Sep-2020, 12:42 AM) anewmission Wrote: The Denon gui is horrible.

It is.. Big Grin This was my trusty amp back in the day. At the time it's the only one that does HDCP correctly out of the box. All other AVRs at the time have heaps of problems. It's also built solidly (at that time "Made In Japan" actually meant something).

(09-Sep-2020, 12:42 AM) anewmission Wrote: I will do a snake oil os test this week also. However when I go into the backend of my dedicated snake oil machine, it is only showing my usb DAC, it did at one point have the option of using hdmi .

The best would be if I can get snake oil working with hdmi dsd, then I will dual boot Kodi (libreelec) and snake oil for music .

Another strange thing that is happening is if I switch to mpd v20 or 21 I can no longer access the mod page where you update your library. I usually have it set to minimserver using upmpcli. Though the library is only updating in bubbleupnp app and not in M.A.L.P which is a straight forward mpd app .

Hmm. Check the kernel section and see if I have one for Intel HDA (also make sure you setup your onboard audio as HDA and not AC97)... I'll see if I can generate a custom kernel later this weekend if one is not there.

My grand plans of a webpage for you to customise and build a kernel still hasn't got off. Been so busy lately I am too tired to do much after work (if I work on Snakeoil after work I'll be too tired for work which is not good)... Alas I can't get enough traction on this Snakeoil project to make it my full time job.. It's a chicken and egg problem right now. Aim is to work this project into open source, then other folks can come in and help.. Hope I can make that transition sooner rather than later.
Snakeoil Operating System - Music, your way!
[-] The following 1 user Likes agent_kith's post:
  • hkphantomgtr
 Reply
#7
(09-Sep-2020, 08:37 AM) agent_kith Wrote: My grand plans of a webpage for you to customise and build a kernel still hasn't got off. Been so busy lately I am too tired to do much after work (if I work on Snakeoil after work I'll be too tired for work which is not good)... Alas I can't get enough traction on this Snakeoil project to make it my full time job.. It's a chicken and egg problem right now. Aim is to work this project into open source, then other folks can come in and help.. Hope I can make that transition sooner rather than later.


Ng Theng Kiat ....your health, your well-being, and your loved ones take precedence over any demands on the Snakeoil Project.
We users send our best wishes and await with humble patience.

You have crafted a Tremendous Player and it works so well already !

Relax, restore, rejuvenate.... we are with you and wish your health and happiness in these troubled times.

Best,
Bob.
[-] The following 2 users Like Bromf's post:
  • hkphantomgtr, agent_kith
 Reply
#8
(09-Sep-2020, 02:35 PM) Bromf Wrote: Ng Theng Kiat ....your health, your well-being, and your loved ones take precedence over any demands on the Snakeoil Project.
We users send our best wishes and await with humble patience.

You have crafted a Tremendous Player and it works so well already !

Relax, restore, rejuvenate.... we are with you and wish your health and happiness in these troubled times.

Cheers.. I think it'll be a good step forward with the new ISO and kernel builder site. Hope these two will be out soon.
Snakeoil Operating System - Music, your way!
 Reply
#9
(09-Sep-2020, 08:37 AM) agent_kith Wrote:
(09-Sep-2020, 12:42 AM) anewmission Wrote: Ok so this is how far I have gotten.
I updated Kodi (libreelec) to the latest 18.8.
I searched through the audio encoders and decoders and couldn't find a dad plugin.
It does play the files but I'm pretty sure it converts to pcm at 44.1

Unfortunately today the video output of my Denon 3808ci has stopped working. I do think it's something to do with my TV and the amp and they just aren't talking to each other properly.

A tiny DSD logo will show up on the amp LCD if the input is receiving native DSD bitstream. Snakeoil should see onboard HDMI (Intel HDA) as an audio device, having said that, it's not gonna work as the Denon 3808 will only do DSD if it's encrypted.
(09-Sep-2020, 12:42 AM) anewmission Wrote: I'm still using a trusty pioneer kuro in this setup, if anyone has any idea what it could be, please let me know.

I still see the boot up screen when I turn the media centre pc but then as it runs through bootuo the resolution changes alot and for some reason it's just not showing video. I did get it to show up for about 10 seconds a little while ago but it just went black again.

Could be a handshake issue? Try a difference HDMI cable if you can.
(09-Sep-2020, 12:42 AM) anewmission Wrote: The Denon gui is horrible.

It is.. Big Grin This was my trusty amp back in the day. At the time it's the only one that does HDCP correctly out of the box. All other AVRs at the time have heaps of problems. It's also built solidly (at that time "Made In Japan" actually meant something).
(09-Sep-2020, 12:42 AM) anewmission Wrote: I will do a snake oil os test this week also. However when I go into the backend of my dedicated snake oil machine, it is only showing my usb DAC, it did at one point have the option of using hdmi .

The best would be if I can get snake oil working with hdmi dsd, then I will dual boot Kodi (libreelec) and snake oil for music .

Another strange thing that is happening is if I switch to mpd v20 or 21 I can no longer access the mod page where you update your library. I usually have it set to minimserver using upmpcli. Though the library is only updating in bubbleupnp app and not in M.A.L.P which is a straight forward mpd app .

Hmm. Check the kernel section and see if I have one for Intel HDA (also make sure you setup your onboard audio as HDA and not AC97)... I'll see if I can generate a custom kernel later this weekend if one is not there.

My grand plans of a webpage for you to customise and build a kernel still hasn't got off. Been so busy lately I am too tired to do much after work (if I work on Snakeoil after work I'll be too tired for work which is not good)... Alas I can't get enough traction on this Snakeoil project to make it my full time job.. It's a chicken and egg problem right now. Aim is to work this project into open source, then other folks can come in and help.. Hope I can make that transition sooner rather than later.


so the dsd over hdmi might be good with something like an oppo player? using sacd's?

i think if thats the case i wont bother. im about to buy a secondary dac, the topping d90 so i can go fully balanced... that will be for my snakeoil setup. and ill put my current dac in the second room.

the topping does i2s connection via a hdmi cable. and thats where it gets tricky. if i can get the hdmi on snakeoil working, in theory i could buy a hdmi to i2s converter from ebay for $50 and then run it into the dac

ps audio do this with their streamers and cd players ect. only difference is the ps audio stuff is about 20thousand dollars.

i have just never liked usb, i am a music producer/engineer and usb has to be the worst way to convert from analog to digital and then back from digital to analog.. because of the way usb works by sending packets,

i am currently using a firewire adc/dac in my studio which is fantastic. very low latency. unfortunately firewire has become pretty much redundant, and replaced with thunderbolt. i think thunderbolt is pretty much being phased out because of usb c. 
a thunderbolt dac would be the best i would say. only high end audio interfaces adc's/dac's  have thunderbolt connections.
some of these dac companies should change to atleast usb c. most hifi dacs still use usb 1.
 Reply
#10
(10-Sep-2020, 06:47 AM) anewmission Wrote: so the dsd over hdmi might be good with something like an oppo player? using sacd's?

Kind of. For the Denon 3808, you will need the 2930 or the 3930 (these 2 models still use ethernet cable for the HS/Link). Newer models use HDMI for HS/Link.

(10-Sep-2020, 06:47 AM) anewmission Wrote: i think if thats the case i wont bother. im about to buy a secondary dac, the topping d90 so i can go fully balanced... that will be for my snakeoil setup. and ill put my current dac in the second room.

the topping does i2s connection via a hdmi cable. and thats where it gets tricky. if i can get the hdmi on snakeoil working, in theory i could buy a hdmi to i2s converter from ebay for $50 and then run it into the dac

ps audio do this with their streamers and cd players ect. only difference is the ps audio stuff is about 20thousand dollars.

i have just never liked usb, i am a music producer/engineer and usb has to be the worst way to convert from analog to digital and then back from digital to analog.. because of the way usb works by sending packets,

A fun fact. Every equipment in a balanced setup needs to be balanced for it to work. So there is a + and a - for each Left and Right channel. This is how it rejects common mode noise. So for a fully balanced setup, you need to find something that sends data (and the inverse of the data).. HDMI and USB are balanced signal cables.

Having said that, I honestly never liked the two.. With music, on my DAC, I'm surprised to find out that i prefer S/PDIF over USB when I'm playing CD music.

(10-Sep-2020, 06:47 AM) anewmission Wrote: i am currently using a firewire adc/dac in my studio which is fantastic. very low latency. unfortunately firewire has become pretty much redundant, and replaced with thunderbolt. i think thunderbolt is pretty much being phased out because of usb c. 
a thunderbolt dac would be the best i would say. only high end audio interfaces adc's/dac's  have thunderbolt connections.
some of these dac companies should change to atleast usb c. most hifi dacs still use usb 1.

Most DACs are USB 2.. There are some that's USB 3.... USB 1.0 and 1.1 don't have enough bandwidth for music (their speed is only good for mouse, keyboards and serial ports).
Snakeoil Operating System - Music, your way!
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